Ervaringen met One-Seven /CAFS / DLS

Auteur Topic: Ervaringen met One-Seven /CAFS / DLS  (gelezen 121341 keer)

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Maarten

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Reactie #30 Gepost op: 10 maart 2007, 12:01:12
@ Fred

Dat stukje komt van de website http://www.schmitz-feuerwehr.de

Schmitz (reeds vermeld door René) is de producent van het One-seven systeem. Je kunt je dus afvragen of de informatie op hun website over hun blussysteem objectief is ;)

(Hiermee geef ik geen oordeel over one-7 / cafs / schuim, daar weet ik te weinig van af ;))
Groeten, Maarten  
Als je snel vooruit wilt, ga dan alleen. Als je ver wilt komen, ga dan s


Fred Vos

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Reactie #31 Gepost op: 10 maart 2007, 12:47:26
@ Maarten

Uw bijdrage is duidelijk.
Maar dan houden we het probleem wie heeft wel verstand van de natuur- en scheikundige effecten van blusmiddelen onder verschillende applicaties. Ik heb die pretentie wel; na uitgebreide en jarenlange studie, experimenten en ervaring, maar ga nergens over. Die dingen zijn aangeschaft; Who cares?

Wie neemt de verantwoordelijkheid voor een inzet die voorspelbaar, onder objectief te beschrijven condities, gaat leiden tot een explosie/steekvlam met onverwachte (tegen)richting en temperatuur. Ik maak me echt zorgen, al helpt dat niets.

Wat een (brandweer)wereld! Jaren geleden was zo'n slimme verkoper er weer in geslaagd voor tunnelbranden zuurstofrecirculatieapparatuur te slijten (adembescherming) dan kon men langer onderweg zijn en door hitteuitputting .......
Eind jaren zeventig promoveerde een arts aan de UVA op de fysiologische onmogelijkheid van dit soort uitrusting op mijn probleemstelling hieraan vooraf, als verantwoordeliijke in Amsterdam. Men leert en vergeet maar weer snel.
Is Creutzfeld Jacob ook al langere tijd hoogleraar/lector op de Brandweeracademie? Of is het Alzheimer?

Met vriendelijke groet,
Fred Vos.
Disclaimer: Alle uitspraken van het verbannen lid Fred Vos zijn geheel voor eigen rekening, het beheer en moderatorteam van het Hul


Peter71

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Reactie #32 Gepost op: 10 maart 2007, 13:17:05
Tja,het idee van One-seven is leuk.En het zal zeker een toekomst hebben.Maar er worden nu al teveel hallelujaverhalen gehouden over het systeem,terwijl het zich eigen nog niet in de harde praktijk heeft bewezen.Ik hoor tenminste bitterweinig gebruikservaringen vanuit Delft.En laten we wel wezen,in feitte doen we al jaren niets anders met onze trouwe lage druk met tussenmengertje,alleen pompen we er met lage druk er minder zuurstof in  ;)


Brandpreventist

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Reactie #33 Gepost op: 10 maart 2007, 17:55:04
Live demonstration of CAFS




Need an AFFF foam system to protect your premises, but have water issues ?
FireFlex Systems presents you the ICAF Integrated Compressed Air Foam system for fixed piping networks !
ICAF is an FM Approved AFFF Foam system that provides better fire suppression with only 25% of the normal density required to protect flammable & combustible liquids hazards.
ICAF Systems now offer a cost effective solution where water supply, drainage or containment used to present a huge problem.
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A demonstration of teh CAFS (Compressed Air foam system) on a petrol fire with commentry at the Uk Fire Expo 2005, NEC Birmingham.  
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Löschangriff mit Mikro Cafs und zum vergleich mit normalem Schaum.
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Brandpreventist

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Reactie #34 Gepost op: 10 maart 2007, 18:28:18
Rapport uit December 1996

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/tr-083-508.pdf

U.S. Fire Administration/Technical Report Series
Class A Foam for
Structural Firefighting

(...)

IV. SUMMARY OF ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES

Advantages

The fire departments that are using class A foam and recent literature list many advantages in the use of class A foam over plain water, including the following.

1. Class A foam allows faster fire suppression and extinguishment than with plain water.
Firefighters report that fire knockdown often occurs more quickly with class A foam. This has been substantiated in both actual fireground operations and experimentation. Firefighters and incident commanders have reported some cases where foam outperformed plain water lines while, in other cases, the foam performance was considered equal to water. There were no reports of inferior performance.
Tests conducted by the Underwriters Laboratories for the National Fire Protection Research Foundation compared plain water streams against class A foam in a series of comparative tests and came to the same conclusion. Underwriters Laboratories conducted additional tests for the U.S. Army with similar results.

2. Class A foam increases efficiency and conservation of water supply.
The increased efficiency per gallon of water is most evident with CAFS. The difference in effectiveness
per gallon of water is estimated in the literature as high as 5 to 10 times over plain water for some applications. A CAFS engine with a 500-gallon water tank would have the equivalent fire suppression capability of a vehicle with a 2,500- to 5,000-gallon water tank.
Water supply is conserved because less gpm is needed per hoseline. The experimental use of CAFS in the City of Boston in 1992 showed that a 1,000-gpm pumper with a 700-gallon water tank, could operate a single CAFS 1-3/4-inch attack line from the tank water for approximately 10 minutes before needing to secure an additional water supply. With plain water the 700-gallon
tank would only be able to supply a 1-3/4-inch attack line for three to four minutes. The Boston firefighters estimated that the CAFS attack line had about the same capability to knock down the fire as the 1-3/4-inch line using plain water. This could provide a tactical advantage in situations where establishment of water supply is delayed.
Reduced water use was noted in several tests. With foam, less water will remain for run-off and associated water damage from firefighting operations and overhaul in a structure fire. The use of class A foam tends to reduce the amount of water that is needed to control and overhaul all types of fires, particularly where densely packed or compressed fuels are involved. However, the impact appears to be most significant in rural and wildland/urban interface firefighting, where the water supply may be limited to the capacity of the tank on the attack vehicle.
In theory, the reduced use of water could also be advantageous in lessening the contribution of fire suppression activities to building collapse, because the applied foam would weigh less than a comparable amount of water. This has not yet been documented in actual fireground operations,
nor in experimental studies.

3. Class A foam can be produced at a relatively low cost.
Class A foam concentrates are proportioned at rates between 0.1 percent and 1.0 percent. (This compares with class B foam concentrates which are proportioned at 3 percent to 6 percent.) At a rate of 0.3 percent, 1,000 gallons of class A foam can be produced with only 3 gallons of class A foam concentrate and 997 gallons of water; the estimated cost of the concentrate would be about $30 (assuming a cost of $10/gallon of concentrate). An equivalent amount of class B foam at 3 percent would require 30 gallons of class B foam concentrate and 970 gallons of water: at a cost of about $300 dollars (assuming the same cost per gallon of foam concentrate).
One fire department contacted for this report estimated that the cost of their class A foam concentrate
was probably offset by the savings in their use of diesel fuel resulting from reduced operating time on the fireground.
The lower cost of class A foam can reduce the cost of training for class B fires. Some departments
that could not previously afford to use class B foams for training are currently using class A foam to simulate foam application. In addition, class A foams are biodegradable and more environmentally friendly than class B foams, so less clean up is required after training.

4. Class A foam forms a protective blanket.
Like water or class B foam, class A foam extinguishes a fire by cooling, but it also has a secondary effect of separating the fuel from its oxygen supply by forming a vapor barrier. This blanket also insulates unburned fuels and exposures from radiant heat or direct flame impingement. This property is particularly effective in protecting exposures and preventing re-ignition after a fire has been knocked down.

5. Foam is visible during and after application.
Class A foam, especially CAFS, is visible during and after application. The visible foam allows firefighters to determine when an area has been adequately covered and when additional coverage
is necessary. This is especially useful in wildland/interface firefighting situations where structures must be protected along a large fire front, or in urban situations where an exposure building is threatened by radiant heat or direct flame impingement.

6. Foam clings to most surfaces and protects exposures much longer than plain water.
The ability of class A foam to cling to most surfaces provides advantages in reducing water run-off, helping to reduce water damage and aiding fire extinguishment. The clinging foam solution also aids in the protection of exposures, particularly vertical surfaces and sloped areas. This effect is greatest with CAFS, but can be significant with nozzle-aspirated class A foams as well. Foam can be applied to an exposure and left for a period of time before a reapplication is necessary. (Plain water generally requires a constant flow of water to provide exposure protection.)
In addition, the reduced surface tension of foam-enhanced water allows it to penetrate more deeply into class A fuels.

7. CAFS attack lines are lighter than plain water hoselines.
Attack lines that are used to deliver compressed air foam are significantly lighter and easier to handle than plain water handlines, because the product inside the hose is mostly air. The line weighs approximately half the weight of a regular hoseline of the same diameter.
The reduced weight and increased maneuverability can reduce firefighter fatigue and stress. Firefighters can easily handle larger diameter CAFS lines. (Nozzle-aspirated class A lines weigh approximately the same as plain water lines, because they contain the same amount of water.)

8. Foam use may help to preserve evidence of fire cause.
The wetting agent property of class A foams allows them to penetrate and extinguish deep-seated fires in combustible class A materials. This reduces the amount of manual overhaul necessary in the fire area. The fire scene may be better preserved for investigators to determine the fire cause because there is less disruption for overhaul and less damage caused by the impact of the hose streams.
The class A foam eventually evaporates or can be removed to allow for inspection and investigation.

9. Class A foam can be used on flammable liquid fires.
Early tests demonstrated that class A foams may be effectively used on some class B flammable liquid fires, although their relative efficiency as compared to class B foam concentrates has not been documented.

10. Class A foam aids wildland/urban interface attack
Class A and CAFS were originally developed for wildland firefighting and controlling interface
fires. Class A foam has been deployed from portable pumps, brush and fire engines, and dropped from aerial tankers and helicopters. The advantage of foam over plain water in the wildland/urban interface settings has been documented over many years.

11. Class A foam may provide long-term cost savings and reduced property damage.
The use of class A foams may lead to long-term cost savings in terms of property saved and resources deployed, over what would have been incurred with the use of plain water alone; however, this has not been conclusively documented.
The quick extinguishment and exposure protection afforded by class A foam and CAFS should lead to decreased total property damage from fires and from fire suppression activities. Departments using foam have documented saving property with foam that they believe could not have been saved using older, plain water firefighting tactics.

12. Firefighter stress and fatigue may be reduced.
The use of class A foam or CAFS may reduce physical stress on firefighters by contributing to faster fire suppression, reduced time to conduct overhaul activities, and faster turn-around time for companies involved in fire suppression activities. This factor is particularly applicable to CAFS, due to the lighter weight and easier maneuverability of the line.


Brandpreventist

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Reactie #35 Gepost op: 10 maart 2007, 18:29:55
VERVOLG

Disadvantages

Class A foam is not without certain disadvantages. Departments evaluating the use of nozzle-aspirated
class A or CAF systems must carefully weigh the benefits desired against the costs that may be incurred. Here are some disadvantages reported in the use of nozzle-aspirated class A foam and CAFS.

1. Initial cost of equipment and training may be substantial.
Nozzle-aspirated class A foam and CAFS systems require a considerable initial outlay of costs for equipment, foam, and training. A simple class A foam system consisting of an eductor and foam could cost a few hundred dollars; most class A foam proportioners are in the $2,500-5,500 range. A large compressed air foam system on an engine could cost over $35,000. Departments must also take into account the cost of the concentrate (about $9-10 or more per gallon), as well as the cost to train their personnel. Maintenance costs of the systems should also be considered.
It is not feasible to document loss control and financial savings in terms of fire suppression efficiency and property saved.

2. Class A foam concentrate is a corrosive detergent.
Like other foam concentrates, the class A foam concentrate is a corrosive detergent which could corrode metal tanks and pump parts. For this reason, most class A foam systems inject the foam concentrate on the discharge side of the pump. Also, the concentrate may be damaging to the paint and finish on fire apparatus.
Additionally, the concentrate may cause drying and chapping of exposed skin on personnel who handle the concentrates. Personnel handling concentrates should follow safety precautions as outlined on the foam manufacturer’s material safety data sheet, including wearing rubber gloves and eye protection. Rubber boots are also recommended, as the concentrate may soak through leather boots.

3. Long-term environmental impacts are still uncertain.
The environmental effects of foam use, especially class A foams, have not been completely determined.
Class A foams approved by the U.S. Forest Service are 50-percent biodegradable within 28 days of application. The effects of the foam on humans and wildlife over a long period of time have not been determined. Toxicity data is available from approval tests.
However, class A foams are considered more environmentally friendly than class B foam, which often must be collected as hazardous material waste after use.

4. Foam concentrate may cause slip hazards.
Firefighters must be aware that foam concentrates may cause a slip hazard if they are spilled, depending upon the surface. Some departments felt the foam created somewhat of a slip hazard beyond plain water, and others did not note any additional hazard.

5. The effect of foam on fire investigation laboratory tests has not been thoroughly researched.
More work is needed to develop techniques for investigation when class A foam has been used, and to educate investigators and firefighters in these techniques. The foam may show up in tests for flammable liquids and accelerants. Additional laboratory tests may be necessary when conducting incendiary investigations to separate chemicals introduced by the class A foam from any chemicals or accelerants that may have been involved in the fire. This is an operational consideration
that requires more evaluation and research as foam use becomes more widespread in urban areas.

6. Firefighters may confuse class A foam with conventional class B foam uses.
Misidentification of class A or class B foam concentrates has led to damage to expensive foam producing equipment. Class A foam concentrate containers are very similar in appearance to class B concentrate containers. Should firefighters mix class A and class B concentrates, they may cause the product to gel together, severely damaging foam proportioning equipment. This could be rectified by thoroughly training personnel, clearly marking class A and class B foam equipment, and by changing the identification of class A and class B concentrate containers to make them more distinct.
Other problems have been reported with incident commanders who do not understand the differences
in class A and B foams. In one reported instance, a CAFS unit was deployed to protect a helicopter landing area during a wildland/urban interface fire because the incident commander did not understand its most efficient use. All fireground commanders should receive training in the tactical uses of class A foams and CAFS.

7. More possibility for equipment failures.
Some of the nozzle-aspirated class A and CAFS systems contain complex and computerized equipment. Any additional mechanical equipment creates more points at which a system failure could occur. In CAFS systems, this could potentially compromise the fire stream until the pump operator has the ability to correct the water pressure and the crew puts the nozzle on the line (if necessary); in nozzle-aspirated class A foam systems, the hose would simply deliver plain water should the foam system fail.
Additional procedures and additional equipment logically create more opportunity for mishaps and errors of both a human and a mechanical nature.

8. Restrictions in CAFS line discharges may reduce gpm flow when using plain water.
Compressed air foam system (CAFS) lines may have restrictions or baffles built into the pump piping to agitate the foam solution and air to form better quality foam. These restrictions can reduce total gpm flow when the unit is flowing plain water instead of CAFS. One department designated separate, plain water-only discharges to overcome this problem. Some systems have also been designed without these baffles.


Brandpreventist

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Reactie #36 Gepost op: 10 maart 2007, 18:44:38


Brandpreventist

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Reactie #37 Gepost op: 10 maart 2007, 18:59:01
@ Allen

Over Roermond las ik hiervoor:
"Het speciale aan de DLS is dat het met geringe hoeveelheid water en schuimvormend middel branden blust. Het voertuig is in staat om zowel nat- als droogschuim te produceren."
Toont u mij 'droogschuim', wijze tovenaar uit Roermond, of ik vertoon u als een leugenaar/onverantwoorde fantast

(...)

Met vriendelijke groet, ook aan de schuimende pelgrims,
Fred Vos.


http://www.answers.com/topic/compressed-air-foam-system

(...)

Foam types

CAFS is able to deliver a range of useful foam consistencies, labeled from Type 1 (very dry) to Type 5 (wet), which are controlled by the air-to-solution ratio, and, to a lesser extent, by the concentrate-to-water percentage. Type 1 and 2 foams have long drain times (i.e., the bubbles do not burst and give up their water quickly) and long duration. Wet foams, Type 4 and 5, drain more quickly in the presence of heat .

(...)


Fred Vos

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Reactie #38 Gepost op: 10 maart 2007, 19:00:00
@ Palmpie
Opniieuw mijn complimenten voor uw research. 'All you need to know', was al beschikbaar in 1996 met vooral de lijst van nadelen ( 'disadvantages'). Triest en zo naief, 10 jaar later. ('Post': Korsakow, Creutzfeld Jacob en Alzheimer op het Nibra.)  

"Wij"(Caluwe, Palmpie) lossen dit probleem in één dag op; als een overbodig schijnprobleem met uiterst contraproductieve en gevaarlijke neveneffecten. Wat deed de rest; vooraf aan de aanschaf van dit 'Boemerang' systeem?

Voor mij was deze dag: 'internet' op zijn best. Met dank aan P(tweemaal) en C.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Fred Vos.
Disclaimer: Alle uitspraken van het verbannen lid Fred Vos zijn geheel voor eigen rekening, het beheer en moderatorteam van het Hul


Brandpreventist

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Reactie #39 Gepost op: 10 maart 2007, 19:05:37
@ Palmpie
Opniieuw mijn complimenten voor uw research. 'All you need to know', was al beschikbaar in 1996 met vooral de lijst van nadelen ( 'disadvantages'). Triest en zo naief, 10 jaar later. ('Post': Korsakow, Creutzfeld Jacob en Alzheimer op het Nibra.)  

"Wij"(Caluwe, Palmpie) lossen dit probleem in één dag op; als een overbodig schijnprobleem met uiterst contraproductieve en gevaarlijke neveneffecten. Wat deed de rest; vooraf aan de aanschaf van dit 'Boemerang' systeem?

Voor mij was deze dag: 'internet' op zijn best. Met dank aan P(tweemaal) en C.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Fred Vos.


Ik geef geen waarde oordeel... alleen wat ik zo snel kan vinden op het internet :) Ik zie wel dat er meer positieve punten opgenoemd zijn dan nadelen. Ik kan ze alleen niet op waarde beoordelen...  :)

In 10 jaar zijn de computers ook 10x sneller geworden...  ;) Wie zegt dat er een deel van de nadelen al niet opgelost zijn...  ;) :)

Hopelijk kom ik nog wat recentere onderzoeken tegen...  :)